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Post by Navybelle on Aug 3, 2021 1:43:23 GMT
I guess it's good to know how he reacts when he's upset, when she doesn't act like he wants her to. Good riddance! He's blaming her for everything, and she's apologizing for everything. I feel so sorry for her in this moment, because he completely manipulated her.
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Post by fang2170 on Aug 3, 2021 1:44:40 GMT
Greg was badgering her and it was bordering on emotional abuse, in my opinion. Huge red flag.
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Post by Navybelle on Aug 3, 2021 1:49:47 GMT
Greg was badgering her and it was bordering on emotional abuse, in my opinion. Huge red flag. Agree. HUGE. I'm done with him, but I feel for her because she thinks it's all her fault.
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Midol
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Post by Midol on Aug 3, 2021 1:52:16 GMT
As much as I think he is immature and didn't handle this well at all...what more could she say other than he is her #1 and will be there next week...I have to wonder how much of a hand did producers have in making him freak out. This just came too out of the blue for me.
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Post by judith on Aug 3, 2021 1:54:19 GMT
That boy has serious issues. I was yelling at the TV "Don't go after him, Katie. It's him, not you. He's a nut job. He's abusive." Better to find out now.
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Post by waywyrd on Aug 3, 2021 1:56:16 GMT
Let him go, Katie. That's not the kind of person you want to spend your life with.
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Post by waywyrd on Aug 3, 2021 1:56:55 GMT
Bathroom door cam is kind of making me laugh, though.
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Midol
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Posts: 2,936
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Post by Midol on Aug 3, 2021 1:58:05 GMT
Greg was badgering her and it was bordering on emotional abuse, in my opinion. Huge red flag. Agree. HUGE. I'm done with him, but I feel for her because she thinks it's all her fault. I think this also plays into her assault. Despite all her bravado I think she is very insecure. This screams producers. They played both Greg and Katie. I really dislike this manipulation and poor Katie is getting it from tptb and Greg.
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Midol
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Post by Midol on Aug 3, 2021 2:08:05 GMT
IMO this is producer meddling and editing. I hate it when they chop things up so much to set up some fake plot line that I don't know WTH is going on.
I think he is immature and probably realized she wasn't as into him as he thought, but I don't think he is some horrible human being. It probably worked out for the best, but I wish they would just let them be and figure these things out without all this psychological meddling. I think they really played with two vulnerable people.
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Post by carolb57 on Aug 3, 2021 2:10:14 GMT
I haven’t been watching and tonight thought Greg and Katie were a perfect match until he started being a manipulative drama queen!
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Post by waywyrd on Aug 3, 2021 2:13:12 GMT
The Greg memorial montage at the end was a bit over the top.
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Post by MissGriss on Aug 3, 2021 2:35:35 GMT
I can't watch until tomorrow on Hulu. Did it end with him leaving? Is this where the "Book me a ticket. I want to go home" clip figures in? EDITED TO ADD: Never mind. I just watched a recap that answered this. What a mess!
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Post by MissScarlet on Aug 3, 2021 4:33:09 GMT
Looks like it's Phony Hometowns tonight. I guess the show is doing the best they can under the circumstances. They're starting right off the bat. No messing around this week. First off is Blake. I like them together. He's always so upbeat & fun. Their chemistry is so clear too. She's always smiling and relaxed & doesn't have to try. I liked the jerseys & hockey game. Of course, we see ol' Floppy Hair (Greg) moping like an old hound dog on the balcony, face all droopy. I really like Blake's Mom. There we go again, more hockey. Next is Justin, but his family/parents won't be there. No reason given. I wonder why. Already the chemistry & connection she had with Blake just wasn't there with Justin. Really nice guy, but it's just not the same. Justin at least gets a couple of good friends to come & make it feel more like hometown. The friends did a good job with their questions for both Katie & Justin. Greg's next. He's already moping before she gets there. He just has a Resting Mope Face. Katie is the queen of the monkey jump. Even his voice seems depressed. Plus he's a mumbler & monotone. Oh great. Phony rain again. Greg seems to have a really nice family, but yes, his brother does look like Justin's good friend from home. Katie really wants it to be Greg, but she just seems to be trying to convince him & everyone else, including herself. I think she picked him on Night 1, & won't let go even though the red flags are beating her over the head. Kind of like Des & Brooks. The magic & light just isn't in her eyes. She really does want it to be though. Is Katie really ready for a life of mopey depression & guilt trips? Maybe so. Mopey depression is big in Seattle. He wants her to keep chasing him & she's falling for it. He pulls the old mope & "it's sooo haaaard" routine that's worked so far. Wow. Now he's dumping on her & making her feel guilty for not telling him she loves him & grovelling & begging him to want her. This is SO manipulative. Can't she see he's twisting it all around? Quit apologizing to him, Katie. You've done nothing wrong. Didn't anyone ever tell her: "You don't need to apologize or explain yourself if you've done nothing wrong"? Now he's doing the "I'm so perfect & you're so not" bit. Let him go, Katie. You don't need this. Nobody does. Quit chasing him. You're just feeding his ego. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, Greg. During the crying in the bathroom bit, what the heck were all those pill bottles on the shelf for? There's a ton of them. "You can't always get what you want. You can't always get what you want. You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, You can get what you need!"(words for the wise from Mick Jagger)
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Post by Critical on Aug 3, 2021 5:26:40 GMT
Wow. Greg turned out to be a self-centered emotional manipulator. Katie should be SO glad this part of his personality reared its ugly head now, before she ended up engaged to the guy.
WHY was she apologizing to him!? This is SO something that many women are programmed to do. While he was berating her and manipulating her and she was APOLOGIZING to him, I so wished Hannah Brown would appear, tap in and give Greg a verbal smack down. I hope she's looked back at this situation and realized that he didn't deserve an apology. He's a douchebag. She's well shod of him.
Clearly, little Greggy is the golden boy of his family and has never been told that he isn't the center of the universe. His little meltdown seems to just be because he's not the center of Katie's universe. As if she could or would just stop everything and send the other guys home. They let that happen once, I doubt they'd let it happen again.
OTOH, Blake has handled this whole thing pretty well and has been understanding of what Katie is having to deal with. He's clearly a much better option than Greg. No one should want to be with a person who makes them feel the way that Greg was clearly making her feel.
I hope this is the last we see of whiny Greg.
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Post by AlwaysVeg on Aug 3, 2021 16:12:10 GMT
Seems there was a big gap created by editing when things were so upbeat and lovey-dovey, then all of a sudden took a weird swift downturn. What exactly did Greg want her to say? I would have just asked him that flat out. Just because she didn't use the L word, so what? She told him they were almost there (meaning at the end of the "journey" when she would choose him), and they just had a little more to go through to get there. **Was he not listening?** She said she wasn't going to say "love" until the end, so just suck it up for one more week, dude! I don't get it! Wake up, Greg! What else could that mean? She was telling him she had already chosen him but just couldn't say that yet because of the process of the show.
So what was all that crapola he was spouting about who cares about the rose and who is number one or number two because she wasn't being "real"?! Hey Greg, that's how this show works. You agreed to all that when you signed on. And if you want to be the last man standing, then you do care about getting roses and who is number one or two. Who knows, maybe he was so scared of NOT being number one, especially after seeing Katie enjoying herself with Blake on their date, that he manufactured an argument so he'd have an excuse to leave and not face the possibility. And of course it felt better to him to make it all Katie's fault instead of his own insecurity.
So now I think the outcome is obvious, and I wonder how Mr.#1 will feel after seeing his fiancee declare she really wanted another man but couldn't have him. I think I'd feel like #2 who won by default.
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Post by MissScarlet on Aug 3, 2021 19:59:38 GMT
She repeatedly told him he was her #1 & would be there with her at the end. She said it multiple times. How much more clear could she have gotten?
First off, I think his jealousy got the better of him. It's been there & the signs have been there all along. The only time he smiles & is happy is when no one else is around. That alone doesn't bode well for any kind of future. He'd want to control her. He'd be doubting her any time she's out of his sight.
Second, I think her whole Sex Positive calling card came back to bite her in the butt. I still don't know exactly what that means, but it kind of sounds like it means no hold barred sex with everyone. Especially with all the other guys in the Fantasy Suites. At first a guy would think "Oh boy! I know what I'm getting." But now that he's at the end & has feelings for her, it's enough to make an insecure jealous guy flip out.
She might have been better off to just keep her Sex Positive bit to herself 'till she knew what the ramifications would be. It was a fun bit at first, but now, not so much.
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Post by AlwaysVeg on Aug 3, 2021 20:40:21 GMT
She repeatedly told him he was her #1 & would be there with her at the end. She said it multiple times. How much more clear could she have gotten? First off, I think his jealousy got the better of him. It's been there & the signs have been there all along. The only time he smiles & is happy is when no one else is around. That alone doesn't bode well for any kind of future. He'd want to control her. He'd be doubting her any time she's out of his sight. Second, I think her whole Sex Positive calling card came back to bite her in the butt. I still don't know exactly what that means, but it kind of sounds like it means no hold barred sex with everyone. Especially with all the other guys in the Fantasy Suites. At first a guy would think "Oh boy! I know what I'm getting." But now that he's at the end & has feelings for her, it's enough to make an insecure jealous guy flip out. She might have been better off to just keep her Sex Positive bit to herself 'till she knew what the ramifications would be. It was a fun bit at first, but now, not so much. Good point about her Sex Positive jabbering. She wants to save the L word for the F1, but makes it sound like she freely has sex with whoever? I do think they set up and showed us Greg watching her with Blake to make him feel jealous and insecure. Of course his mind is going right to the Fantasy Suites and two other guys having sex with the woman he loves and who said she wanted him at the end of this. They both fell right into that trap by virtue of producer manipulation of their weaknesses and issues. If I were Katie, I'd be pretty pissed.
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Post by judith on Aug 3, 2021 23:34:38 GMT
I think maybe she IS pretty pissed. She was clearly angry and/or annoyed at the MTA last week, I couldn't figure out why. She sat with her back toward the men and answered questions through clenched teeth. In retrospect, maybe she was just done with the whole "process" and had decided to give ABC as little as possible while still fulfilling her contract.
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Post by jt on Aug 4, 2021 0:55:23 GMT
That boy has serious issues. I was yelling at the TV "Don't go after him, Katie. It's him, not you. He's a nut job. He's abusive." Better to find out now.
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Post by jt on Aug 4, 2021 0:56:10 GMT
I agree 100% although he is the cutest one left.
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Post by Navybelle on Aug 4, 2021 3:50:23 GMT
... Greg's next. He's already moping before she gets there. He just has a Resting Mope Face. Katie is the queen of the monkey jump. Even his voice seems depressed. Plus he's a mumbler & monotone. Oh great. Phony rain again. Greg seems to have a really nice family, but yes, his brother does look like Justin's good friend from home. Katie really wants it to be Greg, but she just seems to be trying to convince him & everyone else, including herself. I think she picked him on Night 1, & won't let go even though the red flags are beating her over the head. Kind of like Des & Brooks. The magic & light just isn't in her eyes. She really does want it to be though. Is Katie really ready for a life of mopey depression & guilt trips? Maybe so. Mopey depression is big in Seattle. He wants her to keep chasing him & she's falling for it. He pulls the old mope & "it's sooo haaaard" routine that's worked so far. Wow. Now he's dumping on her & making her feel guilty for not telling him she loves him & grovelling & begging him to want her. This is SO manipulative. Can't she see he's twisting it all around? Quit apologizing to him, Katie. You've done nothing wrong. Didn't anyone ever tell her: "You don't need to apologize or explain yourself if you've done nothing wrong"? Now he's doing the "I'm so perfect & you're so not" bit. Let him go, Katie. You don't need this. Nobody does. Quit chasing him. You're just feeding his ego. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, Greg. During the crying in the bathroom bit, what the heck were all those pill bottles on the shelf for? There's a ton of them. ... That cracked me up: mopey depression is big there, huh? I guess I could see that! I'm so glad to read the responses here to Greg's over-reaction and the way he treated Katie during that argument. It's so disappointing to read elsewhere people defending him and saying he did nothing wrong. Just the way she felt she had to keep apologizing to him, over and over again, being convinced this was all her fault, really bothered me. People are saying he just expressed how he felt. I think he has a right to his feelings, but does not have a right to treat her so badly. The minute he got pouty, then sarcastic towards her, it was a big red flag for me. He wouldn't listen to her, wouldn't let her speak, and acted too confrontational for the situation. It didn't make sense. I'm still not convinced that it wasn't all a big performance, or at least his way to self-eliminate because he didn't want to be the F2 or even the F1 after all. Also, I didn't notice the pill bottles! Whoa. Wonder what that's about? ETA: went to review, and I think they're vitamins. One at least for sure is because I had that kind from Target. And there's a picture of her dog.
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Post by MissGriss on Aug 4, 2021 4:35:12 GMT
In an Instagram story today, Katie linked to a multi-page post on Gaslighting. Seemed like a pretty pointed way of saying where she stands on the whole thing now that she has some distance.
Burn! 🔥🔥🔥
Since it's all aired now, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that Realty Steve said that the whole part of the argument that happened when he went to her room and after was during the Fantasy Suites week when Greg was thinking about her spending the night with the other guys. I think at some point in the talk he referred to the fact that several days had passed.
As for the final #1 feeling like he was really #2, a lot can change during the overnights when they have a chance to talk. Also, if Greg had stayed after acting the way he did, it's entirely possible that Katie would have had time to cook on the red flags and realize he wasn't a good long-term prospect.
And finally, Blake Horstman had a lot to day about Greg's lack of empathy for Katie's situation and her side of things. It was interesting to hear him talk about it, since he's been in that position.
If Blake is her final choice, she's constantly saying how easy things are with him (which is how it should be). Greg has always been too much work!
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Post by angelic_one2002 on Aug 4, 2021 11:55:19 GMT
I agree 100% although he is the cutest one left. Greg? I agree. I just re-watched the episode. He came off pretty harsh about his feelings, but I do understand there's so much pressure and raw emotions being there, and I do think he truly loved Katie. He just didn't convey his hurt or wanting to leave the way he could have. They had a true disconnect. For sure. It's best they parted ways. As much as he probably thought he loved her, he too, will see in time they weren't right for each other.
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Post by MissGriss on Aug 4, 2021 19:02:48 GMT
Dave Neal, a comedian who does Bachelor recaps and commentary and summaries of what people are saying about Bachelor Nation topics, had a post where he went through an Instagram story (which is no longer up) posted by a psychologist (backtolovedoc on Instagram) who works with couples and does recaps of the dynamics in Bachelor shows. She had some really good insights into what happened with Greg and Katie. Bottom line, it was two anxious people who care about each other but are triggered for varying reasons and not communicating well. No one is bad, but both could benefit from therapy, and what Greg was doing wasn't gaslighting. It wasn't good communication, but he's not a narcissist. Here's a link to Dave Neal's video. It was really interesting, and I recommend watching it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OvCK64YiY&t=806sIn the story by backtolovedoc in Dave's video, she points out how Katie's face is expressionless when Greg is telling her that he loves her. And she likens it to the Still Face Experiment when a mother is giving her child no reaction, and the child falls apart. (See video at link below). www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0Looking at it in this light, it makes a lot of sense that Greg's demeanor immediately changed when he didn't get a reaction. And when he said, "Where's Katie. I'm not getting Katie." (or something like that) he had a point. I'm not justifying his behavior after that, but if you watch to the end of Dave's video, he shows an interaction from earlier in the season where Katie is looking so lovingly at Greg and reassuring him, and the contrast between that and her expressionless face when he tells her he loves her is striking. (The point of the video Dave plays is something else entirely, so he's not making that contrast. I am. ) backtolovedoc did an hour-long live on the episode and analyzing all of this in depth. I haven't watched it yet, but here's the link if your interested. www.instagram.com/tv/CSIhvWwFeI1/I like her balanced viewpoint. In the video Dave Neal played (I think), she talks about how Katie was so traumatized by Michael A. leaving put had to put on her smiley face and meet people's families and how she probably was emotionally exhausted and caught off guard by Greg's profession of love piggybacked on all of the emotions about losing his father, and Katie responsed badly and then Greg responded badly, and neither one knew how to come back from it in a constructive way. I feel for both of them after taking a look at it from this perspective.
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Post by MissScarlet on Aug 4, 2021 20:18:58 GMT
I've read a few articles/blogs/etc. today about Monday's show. All in all the viewpoints are very similar. There was a lack of communication & Greg worked himself up into a tizzy, and Katie just shut down. What no one seems to mention is what I feel was the elephant in the room: The looming Fantasy Suite dates. I think that is a big part of what was behind Greg's actions.
Greg already has shown increasing jealousy whenever Katie goes on a date with anyone else, or even spends time with anyone else. This past episode he expressed how much Blake's "hometown date" bothered him. Next upcoming is the big one. Katie will be spending the night with the remaining guys one by one. Greg's already witnessed her attachment to them. Now they'll be alone with her. All night in the Fantasy Suites. Plus, Katie's big tag on this season is Sex Positive. You & I & Greg can read all sorts of things into that.
I think what Greg really wanted was twofold. One was for her to tell him she loved him. The other was for her to swear she won't have sex with anyone else. He couldn't get either one of those. Therefore he got angry & went a little bats. She couldn't give him either one of those either, so she shut down because there was nothing left to say.
I can see Greg's point on this. I sure wouldn't want to agree to marriage to someone who just went at it with other people. To me that would show that they certainly must not really love me or care about my feelings. This show just zooms right over this problem.
Some how the whole "I just went at it with two other people, but I choose you, Aren't you lucky?" bit sure doesn't seem like a good setup for future happiness. It makes it sound like the Fantasy Suites are just auditions for how well they can do in bed. Whoever does the best job in bed, wins. That's enough to make anyone a little crazy.
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Post by MissGriss on Aug 4, 2021 21:33:50 GMT
Lots of bachelor(ette)s don't have sex with anyone. The fantasy suites can be a time for talking about things they couldn't talk about on camera. Also, I don't think that being sex-positive means that you're looking to have sex with anything that moves. It just means that liking sex is nothing to be embarrassed about and that she can be comfortable talking about it.
But I do agree that the upcoming fantasy suite dates may well have been adding to Greg's need to be sure that she loved him and it would be the two of them at the end. I also think that Katie's flat affect when he told her he loved her was an indicator that she might have been moving more toward Blake as her final one and didn't quite know how to react. Or maybe it just caught her by surprise and she needed a minute to process it, which he didn't give her.
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